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Post by Teerizz on May 21, 2007 18:33:17 GMT -4
I kind of remember hearing about a ton of questionable calls this week. Please post them hear if you can remember some.
Here is one from my game:
Scenario: Runners on 1st and 2nd, 1 Out, new kicker and no count.
My first pitch goes over the plate. Brooke is standing there. Faberman calls the pitch a strike. The ball hits off of Brooke. It goes into fair play (we will disregard whether it hit foul or fair first). Brooke doesn't run to first until after her teammates tell her to.
What is the call here?
I have got to say that this is a STRIKE and the play is dead. It did not look like a kick to me, and Brooke didn't even run. I made no attempt to even get the "kick" b/c Faberman called the strike. I certainly could have gotten her out had I played the ball, not being thingyy or anything.
The result was that it was a strike.
As a result of this, we need to emphasize that the head ref not prematurely call his balls, strikes, fouls. Wait for the kicker to do something. I know that I've have 3-0-0 counts, and b/c I don't walk to walk, I foul off an obvious 4th ball, but the ref has called it a ball prematurely. I had to bicker with them that I fouled it off to get more pitches. I know this contradicts what I believed that correct call should be in my case above, but I think it is slightly different in this case.
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Post by Teerizz on May 21, 2007 18:36:15 GMT -4
Also, rule #2
As part of the Rules Corner, 1829 didn't seem to know that a foul ball is always a foul ball and can never be fair again, or once a foul, always a foul. I am correct in saying this, right?
I'd just toss that into the newsie as a reminder.
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Post by Teerizz on May 21, 2007 18:43:30 GMT -4
Ruling #3
In a game that I reff'ed:
Scenario: Runners at 1st and 3rd, 0 out.
There's a line drive to 2nd, that is almost caught, but hit the ground. The runner on 1st base thinks it was caught, so she runs back. The ball is thrown to 1st base. The kicker, running to first makes it in time and is called safe. The runner on 1st base gets tagged out. The runner at 3rd base tags up or waits, either way, and heads home. The defense 1st baseman calls out 3 outs. The guy running home, only goes halfway and never touches home.
Play stops as a result of the 1st baseman calling three outs.
What is the ruling here? I think it would kind of coincide with the "I Got It!" rule, in that something was said that distracted the base runner, and prevented him from getting to the next base. However, I don't think you can call the play dead and award a runner home and a run. A play could have been made to home to try and get the guy out. However, both teams should have known how many outs there were, and the guy running home should have kept going.
The result was the guy on third went back to third.
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Dagger
Captain
Go Wackos Go!
Posts: 1,547
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Post by Dagger on May 21, 2007 22:32:41 GMT -4
As head ref what would u decide?
The runner on third scores. The runner heading to 1st is safe. The runner on 1st heading to 2nd is safe.
I will wait to an offline discussion between the head refs, VP and co-prez to make a final call.
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Post by Teerizz on May 21, 2007 23:28:35 GMT -4
well...the runner heading to first beat our the throw, so he's def safe. The runner going from first to second got tagged out, so she's def out. The question is the runner going from third to home. I just don't think u can award someone a run. Like on an overthrow, the 1 base run is a limitation, not a guarantee or reward. Now, had he actually run-it-out and touched home...I'd have given it to him. But since he stopped, there's no way to know what would have happened, thus I'd make him go back. Nonetheless, I place slightly more blame on the kicking team (60%), and moreso the base coaches for not knowing how many outs there were and maybe 40% on the first baseman calling out the wrong number of outs and "distracting" the runner.
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Post by Rodeo Jock on May 22, 2007 8:35:00 GMT -4
I agree with you there, Troy. While it sounds like the fielding team should take most of the blame, I can't see giving the kicking team the run. I'd have just sent him back to third, call the kicker safe, and the other base runner out.
But I'm not a head ref, so...
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Post by Scottyg on May 22, 2007 8:45:27 GMT -4
oh man thats a lot of discussion: First off, if the ball touches the player it is either a foul ball, or in this case in play. I will say that I have issues with the ruling based on the intent of the batter, especially on the more competitive levels you have pitches coming in fast and spinning, but the ruling thus far is that if it hits you its a foul/in play. I've seen players actively attempt to avoid the pitch and still get called for a foul because they couldnt get out of the way.
2) I'd say the correct call was made...if the intention of the first baseman was not to confuse the players, its up to baserunners to know the game situation, if there is any doubt in your mind you should be running it out to be sure. I've had some problems with that when it comes to 1st/3rd refs, which leads me to:
Question: Ball is kicked in the air down the first baseline, Head ref yells fair, 1st says foul, who is overuled, should one have deferred to begin with? Either way I feel the runners should always run it out, but we had a rough time with this call in the Flame On! Wackos game a few weeks ago.
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Post by Rodeo Jock on May 22, 2007 8:51:16 GMT -4
Question: Ball is kicked in the air down the first baseline, Head ref yells fair, 1st says foul, who is overruled, should one have deferred to begin with? Either way I feel the runners should always run it out, but we had a rough time with this call in the Flame On! Wackos game a few weeks ago. Man, this is way too much to think about this early on a Tuesday morning before a vacation that starts on Thursday! I'd say that the head ref should have deferred to the 1st base ref at least until the line ref had a chance to make a call. Then they could have haggled it out after the play ended...
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Post by Scottyg on May 22, 2007 8:58:24 GMT -4
I think the overall argument was that while our players kept running and scored 2 runs, Flame On argued that they had stopped trying hard to get the ball in because they thought it was foul...ah kickball..and I agree, too much thinking for this early, I'm off for a while.
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Post by jasonf on May 22, 2007 10:50:23 GMT -4
For Rule #1... I'd say this was my screw-up as a head ref primarily because (no offense to Brooke's kicking power...) I thought Brooke was just trying to stop the ball from going past her once I called the strike. When she did hit it, it landed foul first, so after asking her and taking her at her word that her intent was to actually kick the ball, I changed the strike to a foul and had her come back to the plate. Ideally, I would have screamed foul immedately after the strike call to avoid confusion, but in the end, I think the correct result came out of it. I'd disagree with Troy, though, that the play should be dead once the ref calls the pitch -- mostly because doing so in the opposite possible scenario would be a lot less fair: Suppose I called an obvious ball that a batter then decided to step up and cream into deep right field. The batter is entitled to play a kick until it reaches the catcher, so I don't think it'd be fair to void an extra base hit just because a pitch was called. I think of it as in the same vein as calling "foul" for a double-kick or kick in front of the plate that is popped up -- the play isn't automatically dead as a foul ball because the defense still has the opportunity to catch the ball for an out. For Rule #3: This was our team base-running, but I'd agree that you really can't award anything to the runners unless the 3rd base runner had actually left the base. If he had crossed the plate, the run should definitely count because there were only 2 outs. If he had gotten caught in a run-down because of the confusion, this would have gotten more complicated, but if the run-down was directly related to the confusion, I would have allowed him to be safe back at 3rd base w/ 2 outs left in the inning. That's my two cents...
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Post by Scottyg on May 22, 2007 12:07:04 GMT -4
Its going to depend on situations as well, I had to call kicking in front of the plate on S&A twice because Justin pitches may take a full minute to actually reach the plate.
Most people dont even realize that is a rule. They were however not questionable calls, whether Andy wants to argue it or not ;-)
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Post by aspey on May 22, 2007 13:09:24 GMT -4
#1) Sounds like a foul. The only times I would consider an exception are on an obvious ball that the kicker bends down to try and pick up rather than have it roll way past everyone. But something that would have been called strike would definitely be in play if it hit the kicker at any time, regardless of whether the ref jumped the gun.
#2) There are exceptions to this, Troy -- depending on whether you're defining "foul" as "foul territory" or "ruled foul". Once something is ruled foul (i.e. touches the ground in foul territory), then it can't be fair again. But if a player is standing in fair territory and touches a pop-up in foul territory, then the ball is fair (the ball had never been ruled foul at that point).
#3) I think the runner on 3rd should have known how many outs there were. That's tough in the middle of a play, so if he got confused, then the base coaches or ppl on their sideline should have been shouting at him what to do. Although really, there's no reason he shouldn't have been running home anyway. The worst thing that could happen is the run wouldn't have counted and he wasted a little energy for nothing.
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Post by jasonf on May 22, 2007 13:29:49 GMT -4
#1) Sounds like a foul. The only times I would consider an exception are on an obvious ball that the kicker bends down to try and pick up rather than have it roll way past everyone. But something that would have been called strike would definitely be in play if it hit the kicker at any time. #2) There are exceptions to this, Troy -- depending on whether you're defining "foul" as "foul territory" or "ruled foul". Once something is ruled foul (i.e. touches the ground in foul territory), then it can't be fair again. But if a player is standing in fair territory and touches a pop-up in foul territory, then the ball is fair (the ball had never been ruled foul at that point). #3) I think the runner on 3rd should have known how many outs there were. That's tough in the middle of a play, so if he got confused, then the base coaches or ppl on their sideline should have been shouting at him what to do. Although really, there's no reason he shouldn't have been running home anyway. The worst thing that could happen is the run wouldn't have counted and he wasted a little energy for nothing. (hey -- how come what I quoted is more than what was on Taylor's original post?!) Anyway, for #3, the issue was that the confusion came from one of the Sensation players calling out that there were 3 outs (suggesting that both the batter and runner on first were out, when it was only the latter). But yes, Paul LeRoy he should have been running...slacker.
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Post by Teerizz on May 22, 2007 13:52:06 GMT -4
If it was in fact a kick by brooke, I guess I was just confused that she didn't burst off to first. And with the strike being called as well, it was all sorts of confusing.
In response to Taylor...yes, I certainly meant once the balls is RULED foul, i.e. touches the ground, double-kicked, etc, it cannot be fair again.
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anwilli
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Post by anwilli on May 22, 2007 15:00:37 GMT -4
Troy and Taylor - Please DOCUMENT all of these scenarios offline for the next head ref clinic. And, I am just seeing these today, and haven't seen anything offline like marvie suggested. All I know is that the dude reffing our game from Playin' the Field needs some serious rules training.... But, at least he stuck it out for the entire game as Donnie and I were on his back.
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